!important! : thoughts which might save the world
Sunday, 2 May 2010 20:08![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
Yesterday I was talking to
nova33 about why she loves Johnny/Evan, and there was this exchange:
And right there I guess is the kind of Johnny/Evan dynamic that's my favourite, the codependency and the frustration and the need. I mean, I can buy a whole bunch of different readings of their relationship (and so can Johnny & Evan! look at how spectacularly retconned their rivalry is!), but this I think is the definitive one that punches me in the gut and makes me believe, before I remember that Johnny/Stéphane is my OTP (tin-fucking-hat, you guys). I don't know, I find this the most exciting part of entering a fandom, getting to know who the hell these people are and who you ship and why you ship them ("they're pretty" is still a reason, fyi), and also basically thinking about it a whole bunch and also having really intense conversations about it, um.
So, anyway! Why do you ship what you ship, dudes? COME TALK TO ME ABOUT THIS.
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unlurkster: yessss. I approve of this.
OH OH
you know what?? I would like for this to be, like, an actually fake war
where they're just-kidding-no-really, and when they meet to hook up they have teasing hatesex that isn't really hatesex, only sometimes the boundaries between what they meant and didn't mean arenova33: Yes!
ORunlurkster: kind of blurred to even themselves
nova33: It really is just a weird sort of sexual tension. Like...they don't really like each other - so they're not terribly fond when they actually do get together - but all the shit they say to the press is just an extended form of pigtail-pulling.
So when they see each other it's genuine anger - "You implied I was gay!" "You said I was untalented!" - but it's all sort of a game.
Yes????unlurkster: oh mannnn yes! it's just a lot of weirdness crackling between them, sexually, and they don't know what they mean and what they don't mean
YES YES YES. let's have a BRAIN TWIN HI-FIVE, c'mon
And right there I guess is the kind of Johnny/Evan dynamic that's my favourite, the codependency and the frustration and the need. I mean, I can buy a whole bunch of different readings of their relationship (and so can Johnny & Evan! look at how spectacularly retconned their rivalry is!), but this I think is the definitive one that punches me in the gut and makes me believe, before I remember that Johnny/Stéphane is my OTP (tin-fucking-hat, you guys). I don't know, I find this the most exciting part of entering a fandom, getting to know who the hell these people are and who you ship and why you ship them ("they're pretty" is still a reason, fyi), and also basically thinking about it a whole bunch and also having really intense conversations about it, um.
So, anyway! Why do you ship what you ship, dudes? COME TALK TO ME ABOUT THIS.
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Date: Sunday, 2 May 2010 12:26 (UTC)no subject
Date: Sunday, 2 May 2010 12:28 (UTC)no subject
Date: Sunday, 2 May 2010 12:39 (UTC)no subject
Date: Sunday, 2 May 2010 12:48 (UTC)(Feel free to keep talking at me, btw, I find this immensely interesting! I do not know much but I will smile at you beatifically.)
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Date: Sunday, 2 May 2010 13:26 (UTC)But yes. I've had so many conversations with
Ahem, I'll shut up now. Every time I think I'm tired of them I do this.
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Date: Sunday, 2 May 2010 13:03 (UTC)You can't ask thinky questions like this that I can't answer because we've already discussed them! That takes all the fun out of it! (And actually, I think what you asked me was why I didn't ship your OTP. Which - well. WHY DON'T YOU SHIP MINE, GOD?)
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Date: Sunday, 2 May 2010 13:07 (UTC)You can talk about banom also! Or Sherlock Holmes! I like knowing why people ship things.
Also that is lies. I am an equal opportunity shipper! I could probably answer that question, only it would start edging more into a "cos I ship my OTP more" direction and, you know.
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Date: Sunday, 2 May 2010 13:12 (UTC)I could...if my brain wasn't totally consumed by figure skating.
Well, I am also an equal opportunity shipper. But hey, you know what? I'll indulge you. Tell me why you ship your OTP more than you ship mine. (It'll break my heart, but I love you that much.)
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Date: Sunday, 2 May 2010 13:38 (UTC)1. Because Stéphane Lambiel. No seriously, this guy!! I love that he loves cheesy things unabashedly, and that he loves things period. HE LOVES ICE SHOWS AND THE ENERGY OF THE AUDIENCE. WHAT MORE COULD ANY SKATER ASK FOR. Also, he is a total hottie. (Johnny totally refers to Stéphane in that way, shut up.)
2. I enjoy the fact that they've known each other a long, long time. In my head they've always hooked up at least once before, and just decided to be friends instead. And yeah, I guess it's a dynamic that can be pretty sexless (unlike Johnny/Evan, which just sets itself up for hatesex, I think
2a. This is why I find the most RIDICULOUS joy in imagining the schmoopiest relationships. It's like, the tropes that didn't work for me in bandom find a completely new lease of life in figure skating fandom. Future fic? Sure! Kidfic? OH MAN YES PLEASE. I love thinking about future Johnny -- calmer and healthier and hopefully in a happier place, and Stéphane just fits into that.
3. This isn't to say that I don't think they don't push each others' buttons? I think it's easy to stereotype ships, and Johnny/Stéphane very easily gets characterised as a sort of "and then they cuddled, the end" kind of pairing. That is fine! I always support more cuddles for Johnny Weir! But I also find interesting to think about the way they push each others' buttons, perhaps not as explicitly as Johnny and Evan do, but there nonetheless.
4. There are Gaga/Britney fanwars. THIS IS CANON OH GOD.
5. They're both really similar! While I can believe in a Johnny/Stéphane dynamic where Stéphane tones down Johnny's... Johnny-ness, I also like it when people recognise that Stéphane is also a huge drama queen with tendencies towards fits of poutiness. I'd like to imagine that together they are both capable of recognising it in each other and toning each other down, and also I like imagining several hilarious moments in which they call each other out on their drama queen tendencies.
6. They do pairs skating and they both want to be the girl. (But seriously -- it's a relationship in which top/bottom and dom/sub isn't very obvious, so it's pretty reciprocal in that sense.)
7. Because they cuddle. Look at my icon. JUST LOOK AT IT.
It is shockingly easy to get me to tl;dr over this, oh my god. /o\
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Date: Sunday, 2 May 2010 15:29 (UTC)2. I understant the appeal of this, too! I mean, that punch-kiss idea (good way of putting it, I agree) is something I find really attractive and fascinating in its own right, but the way two people can sort of quietly fall into a relationship together is also lovely, and Stephane/Johnny definitely lends itself to that.
Kidfic does not normally appeal to me at all, but oh my goodness, watching Stephane teach little kids to skate melts my heart. (Um, that being said? I'm way more into the idea of Evan as a parent than Stephane as a parent, because I think he'd be an interesting father, whereas Stephane is just guaranteed to be wonderful, you know?)
3. Tell me more about the ways they push each other's buttons! Because that's what's interesting; the stuff that goes beyond the tropes. They can be adorable and live happily ever after, but I'd like to see bitchy fights about Britney vs Gaga that somehow turn into bigger arguments until they're yelling at each other and then spending a week being passive aggressively bitchy.
5. Why haven't you written me this five things fic? Seriously, you just set yourself up for that: Five times Johnny and Stephane called each other out on their drama queen tendencies (and one time they just revelled in it)
6. Do you think the top/bottom is really evident in Evan/Johnny? I'm not trying to start an OTP war, here, I'm actually just wondering. Because I don't think it is. (Discuss this with me, please? For both pairings?) I do think that the dom/sub is more obvious in an Evan/Johnny pairing, but that one fic on the kink meme makes me want dom!Stephane and sub!Johnny always.
7. EVAN AND JOHNNY COULD CUDDLE. SOMETIMES. MAYBE.
...IF I WISH REALLY, REALLY HARD.
Clearly I am equally as adept at the tl;dr thing, so don't even worry.
(This is my new favourite icon at the moment, but that could change.)
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Date: Sunday, 2 May 2010 13:12 (UTC)completely in vaininternal justification - why them? Uhm... I guess because they're so much more interesting than the other common ships in the fandom, because of their rivalry dynamic. Because Johnny plays up his persona with his shove-massive-things-in-me-smirks and because it's so easy to be swept away by what everyone else is shipping with their analyses and their fics. Guh, I don't know. I'm new to this fandom and still learning.I have a question for you - why is Johnny/Stéphane your OTP? I thought I loved J/S more than J/E, but I seem to have forgotten J/S in the recent drama...
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Date: Sunday, 2 May 2010 13:44 (UTC)As for why I ship Johnny/Stéphane: well, I commented here! It is a ridiculous and earnest list and I think they are totally meant for each other. :D
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Date: Sunday, 2 May 2010 14:52 (UTC)Although, the fic I really, really, really, really, really want, which I think is sort of what you were talking about yesterday, is this: Evan and Stéphane realize they are both kind of pining for Johnny and for whatever reason instead of doing anything about it they start hooking up, and then it turns into a ~relationship~ and then Johnny finds out, and is kind of destroyed by it, and then the three of them end up in the weirdest, most neurotic (yet huggy!) polyamorous relationship ever.
(I will totally read Johnny/Stéphane, because it is adorable, but my whole thing is WHO IS SAD AND HOW CAN HE GET CUDDLES, so it doesn't work as well for me.)
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Date: Sunday, 2 May 2010 15:40 (UTC)Also, I want so much fic about that polyamorous relationship. SO MUCH.
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Date: Sunday, 2 May 2010 16:18 (UTC)I will bribe people to write it. Seriously. Name your price, fandom.
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Date: Sunday, 2 May 2010 16:38 (UTC)One morning Evan wakes up later than usual and Johnny's waiting for him in the kitchen, drumming his fingers on the table. When Evan goes into the kitchen to make himself some tea, Johnny's tone is sharp. "What time did you actually get to sleep last night?"
Evan sighs and sets the water on to boil. "I'm not sure." He stares at the kettle instead of looking at Johnny, but Johnny is already moving to stand next to him. Evan doesn't have to turn around to know that Johnny's hands are on his hips.
"Bullshit you're not sure," Johnny says, and he sounds pissed, but his voice cracks a little when he adds, "Don't lie."
Evan scrubs a hand over his face, smoothing his hair out of his eyes. He turns around and leans against the counter. "I think maybe it was three or so?" Johnny just looks at him, and Evan mumbles, "3:56."
"God, why won't you just sleep?" Johnny says, and shuts off the whistling kettle.
"I couldn't," Evan responds. "I had to-" He turns and pours the water into his mug.
"You had to what?" Johnny asks, and the tenderness that was beginning to show in his voice is gone. "What was so important that you had to forfeit sleep on one of the only nights you've had off in the past month?"
"I had to get that routine right," Evan says, and he's talking more to the steam rising from his mug than to Johnny, but the kitchen's too quiet.
"You-" Johnny starts, exasperated, and then he slides a hand onto Evan's neck, warm and gentle. "Evan."
"I just didn't do it well enough, on the show. The judges -"
"Screw the judges! It's fucking reality TV, everything is manufactured to be a certain way, to create drama. It's not real!" Johnny squeezes his hand lightly, but he knows immediately it was the wrong thing to say as Evan stiffens. He's clenching the mug so hard that his fingers are turning white.
"I just wanted to do it to the best of my ability," he says stiffly, and he's using his media voice, and Johnny hates it.
"You have a concussion, and a broken toe, and you're exhausted," Johnny says, and Evan breaks out of his grip and walks to the table.
"I had to get it right." Evan's sitting down now, but he still looks shaky, like he's going to slump over the table at any moment. "I couldn't sleep until I'd gotten it right. I kept thinking about it, lying in bed. All the things that I could fix."
"You should have woken me up," Johnny says, sitting down.
Evan shakes his head. "I don't think there was anything you could have done. I just needed to fix it." Johnny looks like he wants to say something else, but instead leans back in his chair and closes his eyes. "How long have you been up?" Evan asks, and Johnny holds up six fingers. "What did you have for breakfast?" There's a pause, and when Johnny opens his eyes Evan is looking at him intently. "Did you even have breakfast?"
"I wasn't hungry," Johnny replies, and Evan actually slams his hand down on the table, making Johnny jump.
"You have to fucking eat, Johnny."
"I just wasn't hungry!"
"You have to maintain your fitness, but you need energy. You know that."
"I eat," Johnny responds. "I made you dinner last night, didn't I?"
"Yeah, and most of what was on your plate ended up in the trash, even though you poked and prodded at it for forty minutes," Evan responds, and Johnny looks away. "I'm not blind, Johnny. I'm not an idiot, either."
"We're not talking about me," Johnny says. "We're talking about you."
"Not anymore."
"That discussion was not over."
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Date: Monday, 3 May 2010 06:43 (UTC)And this is a very interesting discussion you're all having, and I love how you guys can put into words what the rest of us are thinking.
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Date: Monday, 3 May 2010 11:26 (UTC)I'm glad you're finding it interesting! I tend to feel like I just ramble a lot? But basically my brain has been totally taken over by figure skating at the moment, so.
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Date: Thursday, 6 May 2010 13:45 (UTC)Augh, tell me about it. I mean, I enjoy it, except when I'm trying to have a life as well. :P
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Date: Thursday, 6 May 2010 13:54 (UTC)no subject
Date: Thursday, 6 May 2010 14:04 (UTC)I'm sure I have links for the episodes somewhere, because the internet is obliging, most of the time. I'll see if I can find them.
Oh man, I love this stupid fandom, but because I'm not in school at the moment, I just sit at home refreshing kink meme threads and watching figure skating programs for hours on end. I'm thinking that's not exactly healthy.
We could be friends? And then the PMing could happen! If you'd like, that is.
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Date: Friday, 7 May 2010 02:25 (UTC)Oh man, I love this stupid fandom, but because I'm not in school at the moment, I just sit at home refreshing kink meme threads and watching figure skating programs for hours on end. I'm thinking that's not exactly healthy.
Omg, are you me?
Sure thing. I'm Melon, by the way.
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Date: Friday, 7 May 2010 12:05 (UTC)Ahahaha, possibly? Seriously, I spent all of last weekend watching old routines. I fully blame _skating, and a RL friend of mine who is so, so pleased that soemone else is into skating. (Though she is baffled that it is me, of all people.)
Nice to meet you! (as it were) I'm Elena. *waves*
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Date: Sunday, 2 May 2010 16:39 (UTC)"I -" Johnny starts. "Fine. Agreed." He holds out a hand to Evan, but Evan grabs it and doesn't let go, just tugs until Johnny comes over to his side of the table. He reaches up and threads his hands through Johnny's hair and pulls him down for a long kiss. His hands are gentle against Johnny's skin, his mouth warm from the tea.
Evan breaks away. "So we have a deal."
"Yeah," Johnny says, and if he sounds maybe a little more breathless than he does determined, he doesn't really think Evan can blame him.
In other news, I am totally writing polyamory fic! Because, um...the three of them together is my favourite thing ever? And I want to write self-indulgent threesome domesticity for ever and always.
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Date: Sunday, 2 May 2010 16:52 (UTC)This commentfic is gorrrrrrgeous, I would like to read a billion words of it, please.
(I have talked to you in comments a bunch of times, so I just friended you, I hope you don't mind.)
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Date: Sunday, 2 May 2010 21:07 (UTC)Oh my god, I'm so sorry. I really do just get started talking about these people and I do not shut up.
Um...that being said, the commentfic? I am apparently really bad at just sort of briefly talking about something and then letting it go. I kind of want to write them in an established relationship where they take care of each other, now.
(Friended! I was always too chicken to suggest it, to be honest. I'm a big wuss.)
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Date: Monday, 3 May 2010 00:04 (UTC)THAT SOUNDS AMAZING. If there is a scene of Johnny thinking he doesn't deserve love then it will be my new favorite fic EVER, particularly if that is followed by cuddles. Um. I am kind of easy?
I would LOVE that to be established relationship fic, for real. But the thing I'm writing has just hit... 23,200 words, and I only just got to the conflict, so I am clearly CRAZY. Don't mind me.
(Hee. <3 I am the WORST about friending people, it freaks me out. But I promise I am not scary at all, although I am deeply, DEEPLY tl;dr about Johnny Weir's Inner Sadness.)
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Date: Monday, 3 May 2010 11:36 (UTC)There are many scenes like that, I think! Variations on a theme, if you will. Like...Johnny waking up in the middle of the night after the fourth or fifth time Evan's come over, cleaning because he's not sure what the hell is going on. And then Evan comes out to help him clean for a while and then get him to come back to bed. And another time in which Johnny says to Stephane and Evan over breakfast, "Anyone who ends up with me has to be either dumb or accepting," and his voice is shaky. "So which one are you?" ETC. I COULD GO ON AND ON.
Totally implausible established relationship h/c fic has been added to the list! (So it's official now.) You are not crazy! When I first randomly fell into this fandom - you know, back in the day... - I wrote 20, 000 words of the gay teen version of The Cutting Edge in two days. Like, original fiction. So you are definitely not the crazy one here. Tell me more about this thing you are writing? *waits patiently*
(Friending people on the internet should be easier than talking with people IRL, but somehow I've never managed to handle it very well. However! Thinky thoughts about Johnny Weir's Inner Sadness are definitely a good basis for a friendship, I feel.)
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Date: Monday, 3 May 2010 22:42 (UTC)Uh, the long thing is... long. 26k and change, and no discernable plot. Well. Sometime in the vague future after Johnny's retired, he's at the NHK cup for press stuff, and he ends up trying to help Adam Rippon get a date with Mirai Nagasu, but Evan is immediately suspicious that something's up, since Johnny's behind it, and the two of them spend the rest of the fic fighting with each other. (They have kind of a History.) It's very, very vaguely based around Pride and Prejudice.
HE IS SAD, INWARDLY, AND HE NEEDS HUGS, PARTICULARLY WHEN HE SAYS HE DOESN'T WANT THEM. This is like, my guiding fandom principal.
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Date: Tuesday, 4 May 2010 12:27 (UTC)Okay, so despite my initial dislike for Pride and Prejudice (please don't hate me for that; I studied it at an all-girls private school, I think that had something to do with it) that whole dynamic is clearly something I can get behind. This sounds amazing. Why wasn't it done, like, yesterday?
And an excellent principal it is!
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Date: Sunday, 2 May 2010 20:44 (UTC)no subject
Date: Sunday, 2 May 2010 20:59 (UTC)no subject
Date: Sunday, 2 May 2010 21:45 (UTC)no subject
Date: Sunday, 2 May 2010 21:59 (UTC)no subject
Date: Sunday, 2 May 2010 17:36 (UTC)Also, Brendon/Ryan because of the push-pull dynamic of singing someone else's words and the anger there and the hand-holding. Also, to me they're the prettiest.
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Date: Monday, 3 May 2010 04:26 (UTC)Also the pretty. YOU HAVE MADE AN EXCELLENT POINT THERE.
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Date: Sunday, 2 May 2010 20:39 (UTC)CLEARLY SOMEONE NEEDS TO WRITE THAT. CLEARLY. :D
("they're pretty" is still a reason, fyi)
Oh thank God! Seriously, though, I'm still trying to figure out how the hell I wound up in FS fandom, let alone why I ship Johnny/Evan (and Johnny/Stéphane, but to a lesser extent). The antagonistic tension is definitely a big factor for the former pairing, the adorable cuteness and desire for them to actually work out a pairs routine is what drew me to the latter. (OT3 FTW.)
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Date: Monday, 3 May 2010 05:06 (UTC)I'm still trying to figure out how the hell I wound up in FS fandom
Right?? I blame the Poker Face routine. :DDD
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Date: Tuesday, 4 May 2010 01:47 (UTC)Ahaha, I'm already annoying her enough, I think. /o\
At least you know who to blame. I'm still tracing the origins of this new fannish obsession.
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Date: Sunday, 2 May 2010 22:53 (UTC)I can do a little Johnny/Evan, pretty much for the reasons mentioned, because their relationship history is so hilarously confusing. But it's not really my dynamic of choice, mostly because what I most want from fic (and from stories in general) isn't these gigantic emotional turn-arounds where people go from hate (or strong dislike) to love, just because that kind of anger makes me uncomfortable in a lot of ways and it's just not something I'm super-interested in. I like it in some situations, particularly in stuff that's really well-written that sells me on it, but it's not what I'm drawn to.
My favorite stuff to read is funny friendship pairings, because I love affection and jokes and I adore subtle relationship confusion, where people aren't quite sure of their feelings, and where the main obstacles in the story are trust and figuring out what the fuck they want from each other. Johnny/Stephane works ridiculously well for me on that front. I like good-natured teasing, and like you mentioned, I love people with years of history. I love people who know each other, and get other because on some level they're very similar, and who maybe fight and tease and banter but do it in a way without underlying malice. I like pairings where the people involved enjoy being together, it's like my crack.
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Date: Monday, 3 May 2010 04:18 (UTC)I like pairings where the people involved enjoy being together, it's like my crack.
BASICALLY JUST THIS YES. I love the slow burn that Johnny/Stephane can be sometimes, the way they maybe love each other but aren't quite at the stage where they actually recognise it yet, but that's okay, because their friendship is a seriously valuable thing to both of them too. It's, just -- they've known each other for such a long time, but they've been apart for most of it too! So they understand each other, but they don't get to meet very often either, such that when they do it feels like a special occasion.
I like how it can be hard to demarcate between friendship and romance for them, and basically every story I want to tell about the both of them just consists of a whole bunch of well-lit scenes where they're smiling at each other goofily and feeling like they lucked out. *_____________*
You should tell me about allllll the stories you want about the both of them, for I am interested in your brain.
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Date: Monday, 3 May 2010 04:47 (UTC)no subject
Date: Monday, 3 May 2010 05:00 (UTC)(I also enjoy that Evan cameo, because oh my heart! STEPHANE IS SUCH A PASSIVE-AGGRESSIVE DRAMA QUEEN and I love it.)
Currently the universe that's eating my brain is the one where Johnny's a translator and Stephane writes children's books. \o/
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Date: Monday, 3 May 2010 05:03 (UTC)Please tell me you're actually writing this because &hearts
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Date: Monday, 3 May 2010 05:07 (UTC)Okay I feel really shy about this but hey, if you wanted to know more I could email you. :D?
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Date: Monday, 3 May 2010 12:01 (UTC)